Room Conversation about Gṛhasthas

Room Conversation
July 17


Prabhupāda: …and slowly moved, not that like… id2

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. id3

Prabhupāda: No. The whole siṁhāsana will move. id4

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I’ve seen that in India. Moves slightly. Sometimes for festivals, can…? id5

Prabhupāda: There it can be done. Just like you have four rings, and hang it, and very slowly. id6

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. After They’re installed, can They still be taken for… Sometimes They have special festivals. Is that all right? Because They’ve always traveled. They’re not like a marble Deity. It’s different. [pause] Your translating work is becoming a very regular thing now in the afternoons. Everybody I write to, I tell them that you have doubled your translation work, in keeping with the doubling of book distribution. We got quite an encouraging letter just now, a full report from Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja about all the different things in… id7

Prabhupāda: Get this fan. id8

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fans? Encouraging report from Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja about all of the things that he’s in charge of. It’s very nice. id9

Prabhupāda: In New York. [break] id10

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: …he’s like… Paramānanda’s the president of the farm, and he’s the sannyāsī there. Everything [indistinct—microphone moving]. And he’s also in charge of the Rādhā-Dāmodara office. While Tripurāri Mahārāja travels in the field, he heads up the office. And the office is in a city right near the farm. So he goes half the week to the farm, half the week to the office to manage. And they… Remember I mentioned, Dhṛṣṭadyumna’s brother is an architect. So they’re planning the farm for building it. It’s called a model community. They’re going to make it New Varṣāṇā Model Community. Everything will be planned out ahead of time—where the cows will be living—but according to Vedic conception. It won’t be hodgepodge. And they feel that it will gain tremendous interest amongst the prominent persons of America who want to visit a model community. Many universities and schools will send groups of students to visit and see. That’s their idea. id11

Prabhupāda: Very good. id12

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Another thing, the big thing that Tripurāri Mahārāja is working on—Dhṛṣṭadyumna is heading up the office—it’s called contract sales. They have written to you once and you said… It’s not standing order, it’s cash on delivery. But now they call it contract sales. Very impressive results. id13

Prabhupāda: Bookstore. No. id14

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. It’s selling of full sets of Bhāgavatam or Caitanya-caritāmṛta, but cash at once. Or cash fifty percent down, fifty percent in one month. Or, you know, different schemes, payment schemes. It’s called contract sales. So far, I have the figures if you’d like to hear how many they sold, the books. It looks like it may become a huge thing for book distribution. Would you like me to get the…? id15

Prabhupāda: Let me go this side and come back. id16

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. [break] id17

Prabhupāda: …gentlemen who are… It is good suggestion. It is a Communist government plan to cut down. Communists think of God as a farce. And we are stressing on God consciousness. id18

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Surabhi Swami sent some plan of the Bhaktivedanta Institute building, sent a blueprint. id19

Prabhupāda: Where is? id20

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I bring it? [break] They sent also… [break] id21

Prabhupāda: …they want people join together and protest. And what is the response from Caitanya Maṭha? And that Surendranath Das is with Caitanya Maṭha, or he’s doing something independently? A remark by such a great officer, I.D., is not to be neglected. id22

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I’m thinking to send a copy of the letter direct to Māyāpur and another one through Calcutta, just in case there’s some… id23

Prabhupāda: Do the needful. id24

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you want me to go to Delhi, or should I wait until Bhakti-caitanya comes with Mr. Nai on Thursday? id25

Prabhupāda: No, here. id26

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Today’s Tuesday. [break] id27

Prabhupāda: …gṛhastha life. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura independently lived. Or I was also gṛhastha. Our aim was different. But this neophyte, if they remain aloof from temple connection without attending the function, gradually they will be lost. id28

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was the reason that I suggested to Abhirāma Prabhu that he should make his business in Bombay. Actually, the gṛhasthas have no desire to live independent of the temples. Just like Mādhavānanda, he’s got an apartment now just near the temple so that he can attend maṅgala-ārati and the other functions. id29

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless these things are continued, the karmīs’ poison will spoil him. He can do independent business; there is no harm. But must be connected with the devotional service. id30

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. id31

Prabhupāda: Just like Abhirāma constructed that house. That’s all right. He is within the campus. There is no harm. And now if he goes away after so much training, advancement, if they are lost, then that’s a great loss for the Society. With such… With great difficulty we make one Vaiṣṇava. And again, if he goes like Śyāmasundara, then it is great loss. The whole idea is to give up attachment for material world and increase attachment for Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Now, according to one’s position, gradually. But this is the aim. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 2.59]. Nivṛtti. id32

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don’t think Abhirāma has any intention of going away. id33

Prabhupāda: No, he has no intention, but he lives apart from temple connection… id34

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he will go away automatically. id35

Prabhupāda: Yes. id36

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that’s not possible, then, for him to go to Bangalore, ‘cause we have no center in Bangalore. id37

Prabhupāda: So he wants to organize a center there? id38

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he was thinking of organizing business. id39

Prabhupāda: Then Bombay is better place than Bangalore. id40

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He admits it’s a better place. No, he can be encouraged very easily to go to Bombay. I mean, generally, throughout our Society, I don’t think the trend of the gṛhasthas is to move away from temples and live independently. If they live independently from the temple, it’s in close… id41

Prabhupāda: No, no. There is chance, I said. id42

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. id43

Prabhupāda: The karmīs’ association is very contaminous. Asat-saṅgī. So for him the best thing will be to take a room in Bombay. Let him do business. id44

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I’m sure now that… I’ll convey all… id45

Prabhupāda: Gṛhastha should not be dependent on Society. At the same time, he should not be independent of the Society. [laughs] This is the position. Because Society cannot take charge of a family. There will be so many number of families. How it is possible? At the same time, if they remain independently of the Society, without touch, then the karmīs’ poison will infect. id46

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like the solution is to get apartments near the temple, get room near the temple. id47

Prabhupāda: Why not in the temple? Why? If he pays, what is wrong? id48

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, in a place like Bombay where we have so many buildings, in the temple. But sometimes… Just like in America, if there’s only one building with only… id49

Prabhupāda: No, America also… Just like Los Angeles we have got. id50

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That’s different. There there are apartments. id51

Prabhupāda: Similarly, we have to arrange like that. They should not live completely independent. That will be future danger. id52

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has to be a community of devotees. id53

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious ideal gṛhasthas. That we want. Just like Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. There are many. I was gṛhastha. There was Deity worship, everything nice. I was publishing Back to Godhead from gṛhastha. So aim was there. But I could not leave family life for some circumstances. That is a different thing. Must be in touch with the devotional service as in the temple. If live nearby temple, it is easier, or in the temple. But aloof, that is dangerous. id54

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If they live in the temple, then there’s the problem of… You know. id55

Prabhupāda: No. Temple, he can take one room, pay for it. He wants to pay. That is also payment. And further, if he can pay, that’s all right. id56

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In America, supposing a householder family pays for a room in our temple building. So they can have their sex life and family life? id57

Prabhupāda: If they can pay for prasādam also, it is nice. Sex… Husband-wife living, there must be sex, so who can…? id58

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So how can that be in the same building as the brahmacārī āśrama? id59

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, so many other gṛhastha tenants. id60

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That’s in, like, Hare Kṛṣṇa Land in Bombay. But supposing in a… id61

Prabhupāda: That you cannot check. Gṛhastha means they must have sex. But they’re living independent, separately. id62

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that’s in Hare Kṛṣṇa Land. id63

Prabhupāda: No, anywhere. If they are doing independent business, let them do that. id64

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So in the New York… id65

Prabhupāda: Karmīs’ concession, sex. id66

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the New York they can live families together? In that building, families can live together and have sex life? id67

Prabhupāda: What is wrong? id68

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In that building. It’s all right? id69

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? In a building there are so many different types of men. In a big building, apartment building, you cannot expect all of them of the same class. id70

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. ‘Cause in Bombay you had said that is was better that in an immediate building of the temple they should not live together with wife. They should live separately. id71

Prabhupāda: No, that is, they are not doing business. They are attached to temple activities. Anyway, these things have to be adjusted. You cannot follow very rigid in case of gṛhasthas. Some way or other, you have to adjust. We cannot allow them to be lost. id72

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. That’s clear. id73

Prabhupāda: Better allow them to live together. What can be done? But we cannot lose them. After training so much, if they are lost, then that is a great loss. This I am giving hint. Now you GBC, you change them. Make process. id74

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Right now in our Society throughout the world, wherever there are gṛhasthas living in our temples, they live separate from their wives. And if they want to live with their wives, then they get a room or an apartment near the temple. id75

Prabhupāda: So may be like that, but must be attached to the temple. id76

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that’s the clear point. We should not lose anyone. id77

Prabhupāda: No, that’s a great loss. id78

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because if husband and wife live together in the temple itself, where there are so many brahmacārīs and other… [break] id79

Prabhupāda: …he makes love with a girl and marries and live at the cost of Society, and that is to be discouraged. If you want to marry, you work independently. Maintain yourself. And whatever you can contribute, do that. That is the… Just like Abhirāma. He’s very good. And I don’t want to be lost. He constructed that house; I never forbade. And it is in the campus. Let him remain a little separately. It doesn’t matter. id80

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think the main reason that he can’t live there anymore is that because of doing business he’ll not always be able to be in Māyāpur, and he doesn’t feel that that house is safe for his wife to live there alone. id81

Prabhupāda: Why alone? Can live with others. id82

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Other householders there also. id83

Prabhupāda: Yes. Many householders can live there together. id84

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. There’s room on the floor below for two other families to live… id85

Prabhupāda: Hmm? id86

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There’s room on the floor below his apartment for two other families. I don’t know what… id87

Prabhupāda: That can be arranged. That is not… id88

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don’t think he feels it’s safe enough. id89

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is incidental. This is not permanent problem. id90

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don’t know what’s behind it. He may… I don’t know the full reasons why he doesn’t want to stay there anymore. id91

Prabhupāda: If he wants to do business, how he can stay there? id92

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. [laughs] There’s no business in Māyāpur. id93

Prabhupāda: What is business there? id94

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants to go where there’s a business center. id95

Prabhupāda: No, business means he must do business in some city. id96

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Bombay. id97

Prabhupāda: Anywhere. Bombay is the best city. He has got facility to stay there. For business Bombay is the best city. id98

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In India. id99

Prabhupāda: In India. No, world. It is a very important city. Export, import, local. Tremendous business possibility there. Many poor men goes and becomes very rich men. Bombay is very important center. You have to get a place by giving bribe, fifty thousand, sixty thousand, to stay there. id100

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They call that huṇḍi. id101

Prabhupāda: Not huṇḍi. id102

Bhakti-caru: Pagri[?]. id103

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pagri, I mean. id104

Prabhupāda: Pagri, yes. To get a place there… Bombay is so important that if you want to get a place you have to pay no less, fifty thousand, lakh of rupees to stand. Then do business. Very important. Anything you do, you must have land first of all to stand. Otherwise what you’ll do? To stand in Bombay you have to pay lakh of… Don’t you see—we drive away the tenants—how much we recompense. We pay compensation. id105

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We have to pay a lot of money… id106

Prabhupāda: That’s it. id107

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: …so that they can pay for some other place. id108

Prabhupāda: Yes. id109

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That’s true. Nowadays it’s very difficult. id110

Prabhupāda: This is system in Bombay. Without paying, you cannot get even inch of land. id111

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Trivikrama Mahārāja told me Japan it’s getting like that also, Tokyo. id112

Prabhupāda: Wherever there is scarcity, that is the system. id113

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In America that is not there. id114

Prabhupāda: America, enough places. id115

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have paying a few months’ rent, but not pagri. id116

Prabhupāda: There are so many houses. Why they should pay? id117

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. That’s true. id118

Prabhupāda: Multi-story building. Why people should pay? Now Bombay have got many multi-story building; therefore that demand is reduced. But still, you have to pay in important place pagri, or underhand. What is called? id119

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bribe. id120

Prabhupāda: Bribe is very bad word. “Under table.” [chuckling] id121

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Under the table. Unofficial. id122

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mean I am paying on the table hundred rupees and under table two hundred rupees. id123

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think you know everything spiritual and material. id124

Prabhupāda: Hmm? So my fear is that after training our men so much, if he’s lost, that’s a great loss. Then future of Society becomes very hopeless. id125

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the principle is that if a householder has outside employment and can pay, then he can live inside our temple building. id126

Prabhupāda: That’s nice. What is the wrong? id127

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At least for five or six years now the system has been that no man and woman should live together in the same building as where the Deity is. id128

Prabhupāda: That is the system. Temple is meant for retired men—brahmacārī, sannyāsī, vānaprastha. id129

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So then how we can let them live together, man and woman? id130

Prabhupāda: But if there is no alternative, what can be done? id131

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. No, but there is alternative always. There are available rooms and apartments just adjoining the temples. id132

Prabhupāda: Then it is all right, but he must be connected with temple. id133

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. That’s the principle. Under no circumstance should anybody be independent. id134

Prabhupāda: Upendra is here? id135

Upendra: Yes, Prabhupāda. id136

Prabhupāda: So you have corrected that paste? id137

Upendra: Yes, Prabhupāda. id138

Prabhupāda: It has become soft? id139

Upendra: Yes, it’s very soft and moist. id140

Prabhupāda: That’s good. id141

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? It seems like your voice has become a little congested tonight. Are you feeling congested? Your voice seems a little… id142

Prabhupāda: Congested, my vice? id143

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Voice. In the nose. Congestion. id144

Prabhupāda: My nose? Not very much. id145

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. id146

Prabhupāda: So you can go. id147

Upendra: Prabhupādajī? I have one question since you are speaking about gṛhastha. If a brahmacārī decides to get married and then enters into married life, should he be encouraged to maintain that responsibility throughout his life? id148

Prabhupāda: No, no. Unless he can maintain family, why should he marry? id149

Upendra: Well, I’m specifically questioning the fact that some… Of course, our movement is young, but so many women, their husbands leave them, and they are so young and they’re left. So these young women I’m thinking may become a disturbance in the future to the movement, because how a woman can remain unmarried for so many years? Her husband has left her after a few years of marriage. Generally we preach… id150

Prabhupāda: What we can do? id151

Upendra: I’m saying the emphasis of marriage responsibility, I don’t know if it’s preached that strongly. Generally it’s preached that one should not… id152

Prabhupāda: No, if he marries, why he should not take responsibility for maintaining? Why he should marry if he has no power of maintaining? id153

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What does that mean, “power of maintaining,” Śrīla Prabhupāda? id154

Prabhupāda: He must maintain his wife, children nicely. Otherwise why he should marry? id155

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He shouldn’t expect the temple to maintain him. id156

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. id157

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, he might be thinking, “Well, I’m a pūjārī, so the temple should pay me money to maintain my family.” id158

Prabhupāda: If we have got brahmacārī pūjārī, why should we maintain a gṛhastha? He is not only one pūjārī. We have got sannyāsī, brahmacārī. Why should we maintain a gṛhastha? And where is the means? After all, these things are to be adjusted. I can give you the ideas. [indistinct background whispering] The pūjārīs were given in Vṛndāvana the temple, and they made it a source of income, just like the gosāis are doing. Their pūjā goes to hell. id159

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who? id160

Prabhupāda: Mean these gṛhastha pūjārī. Gradually their pūjā will go to hell. They’ll gradually glide down how to maintain family by showing the Deity. That is… The gosāis are doing. People have sentiment to give something to the Deity, and they will depend on that income. Bās. This is the position of these Vṛndāvana temple. What is the position of the Rādhā-Ramaṇa? Deterioration. It is not being properly done. They’ll sell the property. id161

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Just like that Madan Mohan is thinking… id162

Prabhupāda: Yes. id163

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: …to do. He says it’s his property. id164

Prabhupāda: Yes. id165

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Imagine that. Phew! Boy! id166

Prabhupāda: He is maintaining it for his sons’, daughters’ marriage. That is… id167

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: After all, Tīrtha Mahārāja did that too. id168

Prabhupāda: Yes. id169

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, “My son is the next in line.” Phew. id170

Prabhupāda: The interest will go to the family, not to the Deity. id171

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That’s not good. id172

Prabhupāda: Jīva Gosvāmī was brahmacārī. So he gave to a gṛhastha śiṣya to maintain Rādhā-Dāmodara. But what is the position now? Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī was also a brahmacārī. Everything depends on training and mentality. If the attention is diverted otherwise, then it is lost. id173

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Mādhavendra Purī, he gave his Deity. Now it’s again… You know, who has Govardhana Deity. Vallabhācārya’s line now worships. id174

Prabhupāda: They gave to the Vallabhācārya. But somehow they are maintaining the status quo. id175

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. Still very opulent. They do very elaborate. That Pushti Marg group, they do very elaborate Deity worship. id176

Prabhupāda: Very nicely. id177

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, they don’t preach very vigorously, but at least their Deity worship… id178

Prabhupāda: That is also preaching. Arcanam. One of the… If they maintain the Deity worship gorgeously, that is also preaching. [pause] id179

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the guiding principle should be that under no circumstance should anyone become lost. id180

Prabhupāda: Then what is the preaching? Alexander the Great? He was conquering, and as soon he went to conquer another place, the last place lost. id181

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What happened? id182

Prabhupāda: Suppose I have conquered Bombay. Then I go to Karachi. In the meantime, Bombay is lost. That was being done, Alexander the Great. Means no proper management. Just like British Empire lost. They could not manage. So long they were managing well, it was going on. id183

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Too much expansion with not enough good management. id184

Prabhupāda: No. id185

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Similarly, we should not expand too quickly… id186

Prabhupāda: No. id187

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: …unless we have the proper management. id188

Prabhupāda: I am stressing, therefore, book-selling. id189

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. id190

Prabhupāda: Not opening temples. id191

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Yes. This is the reason, one of the reasons. Hmm. I don’t think many devotees think in terms of that, but this is a very practical point, that selling books, once you make the sale, that’s it. The book will act. id192

Prabhupāda: Yes. It will remain permanent. id193

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. It establishes itself as a Deity within a person’s home. id194

Prabhupāda: Yes. id195

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The book. id196

Prabhupāda: Now I have given my program. You tackle, GBC men. At least, don’t make me Alexander the Great in my lifetime. [laughs] They are saying, “You are great, great, great.” But don’t make me small while I am living. id197

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or after. We will never make you that way. id198

Prabhupāda: Eh. id199

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should never do that. id200

Prabhupāda: That’s… That’s my request. id201

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You’ve always said to us, at least whatever we have, maintain it. id202

Prabhupāda: And people are recognized I am great. Don’t make me small. I’ll not give you much trouble, but I am now invalid. What can I do? id203

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like even though you’re invalid, it gives us more opportunity to serve you. id204

Prabhupāda: Thank you. What can I do? [laughs] I have to give, give you that opportunity. [laughing] I cannot do without it. [pause] id205

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems it’s just…, it is your mercy to us. id206

Prabhupāda: All right, go on. id207

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you for all these instructions. id208

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. id209

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All glories to you. [end] id210

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